Genvid & Dies Gaudii Forums

The particular form of the Jewish religion & beliefs back then, which partially spawned the Christian & Islamic ones later, could've its reasons & necessities at that particular point of space & time - it's just both bad & sad that they're dragged on to this day & spread to so many other peoples where such reasons & necessities no longer exist nor are relevant, & many of those are even counter-productive to the well-beings & progress of humanity as a whole nowadays.


Actually one of the 1st things I learnt in the discipline is that everyone is a psychologist, whether s/he's a person in the street or whoever - everyone. I may even add that the cats I've interacted w/ are, too - they obviously have taken note of & analyzed my various behaviors toward them in their interacting w/ me.


Many like her have to hunt for some issues to publicize/push their agendas, which're basically a very political thing afterall - that's why I've said she mightn't be crazy at all, nor be she really foolish.

That's what I think, too.



My thoughts exactly. I'm sickened by the medieval assumptions about the "nature" of humans based on gender/sexuality/etc. It should always be described in accordance with reality rather than prescribed in accordance with abstract and invalid theories.

I think it's used less commonly for women, but I know that in some languages (like my first language) "gay" is used only for males.



Your English is good. My English sucks. That's why sometimes I have to bite my tongue and drop things...

That's what confused me.



Says someone who contributes Wikimoon?

Yeah, gay is more for men, that's why you have "Gay and Lesbian Studies" and not just "Gay Studies".

Studies?

It's a subdomain of feminism in academic terms.

Don't quote me, but my impression is that "gay" is originally just a substituting word used to stand for homosexuality back then, but it's now become one for male homosexuality since then - correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it depends on language - in my language, gay is short form of "homosexual", "homo." Despite the word's origin, it's usually used to refer to gay men. But in English "homosexual" can, of course, refer to both genders, IMO.

They use "homo" in England also, I heard it a lot. In Spanish we say "hetero" (sort for heterosexual), but it's not an offensive term.

Hm, I never heard "homo" in England. A lot of people use another simple word - "puff".

Maybe saying "England" is to generalize too much. Well, I heard it in Denham, an English village I've visited several times.


Back on topic:

Does Sailor Moon make boys gay? Nope.

I think it makes boys (and girls) more tolerant towards homosexuality since they see same gender relationships as something normal, as it should be. Unless of course you are a primitive and close-minded person, in which case you should watch the censored anime.

I think the second paragraph onwards is your opinion or your assumptions. All we know is that this woman believes Sailor Moon, especially or specifically SailorStars, the last season, may affect young boys sexuality and that she is from Italy. However, we do not know if she is actually Italian and raised in Italy, or if she just happens to live there now. We don't know what her religion is, and even if she were Catholic, we don't know if she was being as professional and objective as possible or not.

Whatever the case is, I must say I especially get angry with homophobic women, more so than with men. LOL Maybe as a gay man I feel like or expect that women should be more supportive, understanding, or accepting towards us.

Anyways, back to the main topic, I don't think watching Sailor Moon will actually make boys gay. However, maybe it could be influential. If a kid, in this case, a boy, watches Sailor Moon and likes it, it may just be that he consciously or unconsciously idolizes the Sailor Senshi and therefore has a female role-model to follow and will want to be like them. I could imagine that then he might develop in his unconsciousness a desire to have a wonderful boyfriend to take care of him, to want to be beautiful and feminine, and maybe even other simple things like enjoying fashion, shopping, cute things and so on.
In other words, if a boy comes to enjoy the Sailor Moon show, and then idolizes or loves the heroines, he may look up to them and want to be like them because he sees them as cool or so. Wanting to be like the girls on the show could be set deep into his mind and may be the basis of what he seeks for later in life.
Another idea I have is that maybe a boy has to have something gay set in him beforehand, and watching and enjoying something like Sailor Moon, plus admiring the Senshi in a role-model kind of way, will just come naturally.

I guess after thinking about all these ideas, I can conclude that my point of view is that Sailor Moon will only influence on a boy's sexuality and heighten or project his homosexuality IF he already has a homosexual predisposition set in him.

Sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't logged in. This last post is mine.

No, no, no. There's more sexism in what you say than you probably realize. But, hey, if you think that the essence of male homosexuality is being a feminine guy, one who wants to be a girl, then I won't waste my time arguing that. Same for how women should be more sympathetic of gays than men, even homosexual men seem to like to impose certain patterns of behavior on women. Such an unfortunate gender, they always except us to make ourselves "useful" in one way or another.

Trust me, we all watched shows with different characters dominating them and most of us, at one point or another, idolized male or female protagonists. I had, for the most part, mostly male idols as a kid, and I never had a crazy thought like "Oh, I'm gonna need to get myself a girl-friend now, just like the guy I like". Even though you're trying to put it all mildly it basically boils down to what the woman said. Instead of beating about the bush, you could just say you agree with her.

Even if a boy has a homosexual predisposition, it will develop with time anyway regardless of what shows he watches. Your logic doesn't really hold water. Like, young homosexual boys not yet conscious of their sexuality watch Sailor Moon and love it. They start idolizing the female heroines and, with time, want to be like them - get themselves a boyrfriend like Mamo-chan, for example. And that's how they become gay, so that's basically how Sailor Moon encouraged or taught them how to be gay. Like, seriously? It means that, in your opinion, any show with strong and powerful girls would be effecting a boy's sexuality. What you say would also suggest that not watching Sailor Moon might prevent some boys from becoming homosexuals. Because, if they don't idolize powerful girls whom they want to imitate by crushing on other boys but watch male-dominated shows instead, they might turn hetero as they'll be following patterns of behaviors typical for straight male characters.

All this logic would also amount to the claim that watching male-dominated shows will help children remain/turn straight, and that's a completely sexist and homophobic idea as expressed by the woman in question. All this would make homosexuality simply "a silly idea" some people get and others don't, rather than an alternative, equal sexuality.

Do you honestly believe that a little lesbian girl yet not entirely realizing her sexuality will become a fully-fledged and conscious lesbian after watching Ninja Turtles? Because she will idolize males so much that she will want a girl for herself and given her predispositions she will stick with that for life. Meaning, again, shows effect kids' sexuality?

^ I don't think that any TV-shows directly affect one's sexuality, but considering that they are a part of one's childhood and might therefore affect somehow.

Well, if we agree that sexuality is not a matter of choice or personal opinion, but nature you can't do anything about, then shows can't possibily affect it.

If we say kid shows effect our sexuality then we will have to agree that sexuality is a matter of personal taste/choice/whatever just like beliefs and values are and can be changed and shaped by environment, etc. All this leads to harmful ideas about homosexuality - like it's an effect of wrong up-bringing, parental neglect, lack of "good" patterns to follow, and so on.

There are cultures (and countries) where homosexuality is never even talked about, male dominance and violence a norm and female submission another complete norm where you'll never see a Western-like show even, and the population of homosexuals in such places is no smaller and no bigger than in societies which are more tolerant and open-minded in this respect. Extensive studies like that proved that there can be no claim about homosexuality as disease or something to be "cured" or "encouraged" or "discouraged" and so far, though many maniacs argue against it, nobody can contradict that.

True. I actually considered that by thinking that upbringing has effect (or childhood/environment etc.) But I consider your theory better.

I think I've been misunderstood! By no means I meant to come across as sexist or homophobic, being gay myself.
I am very conscious that a gay man doesn't have to be feminine to be gay at all. I believe that being gay is just a sexual orientation and anyone who is gay is bound to be more complex than just feminine or masculine, that being simply because he or she is human and humans are very complex! It is probably hard to describe what the 'essence' of being a gay male is, because every human person is very different. However, I do believe that we could find trends or 'types' of different kinds of gay men, depending on where they live and their culture or so on, but that is not part of what we're discussing.
Even though being feminine is not the essence of being homosexual, it can be a common trait between SOME gays. After all, just like in heterosexual relationships, one of the gay partners usually takes on the male role and the other one the more female role. Whether this last statement is true or not, it is very obvious that some, and a lot probably, gay males tend to have so-called 'feminine' characteristics. Think about all those gay males who love artists like Britney Spears, Madonna, Lady Gaga and other kinds of 'divas', I think there's a tendency for some gays to constantly look to or admire some women or a woman in their lives. Also think about all the gay males who love fashion, who even do make-up, who even buy women's clothes or shoes or even go out dressed like one! All these examples I'm saying come from people I've encountered personally or have seen on the internet (YouTube!!!).
So, going back to the young boys watching Sailor Moon topic. I am going to stick with the idea that there are some young boys pre-bound to being homosexual, SOME who may have the tendency to like the more 'feminine things'. Now, whether this homosexual predisposition is innate, is genetic, is developed in the womb or in the toddler years, it doesn't matter. The thing is, if they already have this disposition, it is possible that they would become attracted to and, more importantly, love a show like Sailor Moon, or any other media or toys or so where females are the center of attention. So, what I tried to say is that in such case, such boys could be influenced by Sailor Moon or such media in the sense that they will identify with the female characters and maybe even further develop their kind of personality, which is involved with their sexuality.
Also, I didn't mean to say that a young boy with or without a homosexual predisposition will suddenly become or realize they are homosexual after watching a show like Sailor Moon (or vise versa for a girl with a so-called 'boyish' TV show). What I meant to say is that if they do idolize these kind of characters, deep down in their subconsciousness they might develop a sense that being like those characters is the way they should be or want to be. Again, all this could be unconsciously, and wouldn't necessarily show at the moment (so, no! I wouldn't say they'd soon go out looking for their Mamo-chan or do just what the Sailors do), but more likely will influence them for later in life when they start developing an identity or becoming adults. Of course, this could change depending on all the experiences they can face in following years. Also, I wouldn't expect just Sailor Moon or any one TV show to influence a young boy with a homosexual predisposition and shape him up for later in life. I think that for that young boy to grow up having feminine behavior, he probably would have to have many TV shows, music, other media, and other real female role-models show up constantly throughout their childhood and teenage years and, of course, he'd have to like them and have them be a part of their life.

To put this in a different example, it's just like the ideas some girls get with fairy tales and Disney Princess movies. Some women grow up acting like they should wait for a man to come to them, and that finding such man and getting married or so will be the most wonderful thing, whether they are conscious of this or not.
Some women grow up with the idea that a Barbie kind of look is the essence of glamour and beauty.
These kinds of behaviors vary a lot depending on kind of culture they grow up in.
Another example is in some cultures, one being the society I live in, is for adults to flatter young girls by saying how pretty they look, how nice their dress is, and so on. All these comments regarding beauty and looks is likely telling the young girl that beauty and fashion are important things, so likely, as they grow up, they'll value beauty and such a lot, whether it's a good thing or not.
I'm not saying it happens to everyone because likely many girls have played with Barbies and when they grow older, they don't care at all about beauty or at least don't think being blonde and wearing pink is the most feminine thing they can do. However, if this is reinforced constantly, it can stick with them later in life.

So, in short terms, if a young boy who has a homosexual predisposition watches a show like Sailor Moon, they may develop ideas of what being a girl is about from it and if they somehow turn out to be the kind of gay male who tend to be more feminine or simply take the passive role in a relationship, it is possible that watching a show with a female protagonist like Usagi will affect his inner ideas of what it is to take that passive role. It could be a simple attitude or behavior like wanting a man who will make you feel protected.

Oh, and by the way, when I said that I expected women to be more sympathetic with gay men, I didn't mean to say that that is how it should be. However, I've been shocked in the past whenever I encountered a woman opposing homosexuals and their rights. That's when I realized that in my mind I expected women to be more sympathetic with gay men, and I realized that it's not always true because, naturally, every woman comes from a different background and has different ideas.
I just probably felt that women would be more supportive of gay men because of my personal experience with women that surround me and others who I've encountered.

Sorry for babbling on and on. I guess in short, I don't really believe Sailor Moon will make young boys gay, but I do believe that it could attract gay guys, men and young boys with a homosexual predisposition. And no, I'm not saying it is true with anyone who is gay because, like I said, like any human, gay men have different likes, dislikes, and personalities amongst themselves.

And further reading other posts, I think what I'm saying relates to what has been said that, being part of childhood, it can affect later. In the case of homosexuality, if someone has a gay nature, then Sailor Moon can infuence NOT their sexual orientation, but how they live their sexuality.

You know this is so not true. I remember a highschool classmate who watch sailormoon as porn. Hentai didn't existed back then during the mid 90's in the Philippines. Then came Sailormoon and the 7 Ballz in early 2000. So SM can make straight boys into perverts.

Sounds like he was already a perv if he saw SM as porn!!! LOL
And then there's guys who did the same with pop music videos from the early 00s like Britney Spears and Kylie Minogue. 'Oops! ...I Did It Again' as porn?!
I have no idea what would go on in those minds!!!

@Endymion - I can see your point, but I can't say I entirely agree. Perhaps gay men tend to like female protagonists/celebs etc., because it takes off the weight of male dominance which is essnetially oh-so-straight and almost all about being hetero and they can enjoy something that appears to be more inclusive. Women, just like homosexuals in general, are still among the groups of people that are dominated and stereotyped (in some places more than others, in Earth-terms ), and every school of feminism stresses the inclusive value of such representations of the groups in question (in media, fiction, you name it), which empowers the previously subordinate groups in a society - meaning all apart from straight males (actually a bit more complicated but this is enough for this discussion) and allows them to co-habit such a social spot. There's even a metaphorical term used for this called "housing". So minorities/dominated groups can be "housed" together, because the door to the straight male world is locked. So it's easy for gay men to identify with this part of culture and society, perhaps it's easier because the other one is kind of built on direct juxtaposition to them. It's different, though, than being inspired to be a gay by watching girly shows. So I'd still dismiss this idea, personally.

The thing is that homosexual men shouldn't be labelled as the "effeminate men" because it's a stereotype and quite untrue, too. When you state your argument like that, it appears, time and again, that homosexuals don't have a sexuality of their own, one that would be equal and generic, but rather a result of a mix of identities that refuse to include them and make them and end up on the margins - feminine but not women, male but not real men. You get my meaning?

I actually think our discussion here is nothing but nitpicking semantics, but that's good, too.



I understand you don't mean to, but all this is totally sexist. So if you're saying gays can be inspired by women to be "feminine" and thus passive in a relationship, then that's nothing but sexism. It's not women's culture which narrates stories about female passivity/subordination, it's the male culture. Another thing is that Usagi is not passive in her relationship with Mamoru - it's her who saves him all the time, she's got more power and importance in the series. But, here, you seem to automatically assume that following the example of a girl in a relationship means passivity no matter what her relationship is really like. (!)





EDIT:



Oh, yeah, I totally agree with that. Though, I think different patterns of behavior with respect to relationships - straight, gay, male and female as presented in shows and fiction and thus observed since childhood influence everyone's way of living their sexuality. So I don't think it's exclusively a gay thing.

I also think that's actually the one major issue of those who oppose to kid shows like Sailor Moon, which can make kids more tolerant toward homosexuality. That's especially the case for that psychologist in question (supposing that she's a real, professional psychologist), since she must've known very well the determinants of one's sexual orientation - I suspect that she just doesn't like to see people, especially the next generation, becoming more tolerant on this regard, for whatever reasons, which could be a religious one.


That reminds me of a certain President claiming that there're no homosexuals in his country in a public occasion during his foreign trip, & his audience immediately bursted into laughs.

I agree with you, Rika. I think when people claim Sailor Moon can turn boys into gays, they really just want to mess with peoples' minds: smuggle the information that homosexuality is bad and that people shouldn't be so and shouldn't tolerate it - all without actually saying it.

Thanks for seeing my point yes a person's religion does make up much of their views such as politics and everything else. This is a problem because religion is not based on reason but rather faith. Faith in some imaginary deity who makes up various rules that you are supposed to follow irregardless of whether they are right or wrong, defensible or indefensible. To which the sexist and homophobic views of the Abrahamic religions are absolutely and unequivically wrong and evil. Plus since this woman most likely was basing her foolish beliefs on the Abrahamic religions, I was not wrong to say this. The problem is that people like her place their highest philiosophical absolute on an imaginary god instead of man's proper absolute reason and because of this she is instructed to ignore reason and accept whatever absurd fantasy the believers in that god propogate.

On your next post you are quite right it is absurd to say that anything makes a person gay. Becaue we know that nothing does it is a polygenic trait found in all species and meant to prevent overpopulation.

I already told you why the Abrahamic religions invented homophobia and it was for nothing good. They just wanted to churn out more warriors to fight and die against the liberated pagans. Plus they wanted to turn women into birth mules becaus they hated female power.
Next you are also right about the sexist evil of saying that a boy who likes female dominated causes nothing but evil. It is why we have so much violence and disrespect for women because young boys are taught that women can not be dominant and if he likes things with dominant and strong women then he is gay. Sadly this is why so many shows have women powered down and why as Elizames said the Twilight Phenomena has caught on too much because of sexist women and what they are teaching to boys and girls.

This is so true. If you keep brainwashing little boys with the philosophy that liking feminine things is shameful, they will develop nothing but disrespect toward women later in their life. It's also how they begin to both justify and exercise violence with respect to women who try to take on the "male" role: be idependent, dominating, career-oriented, etc.

I'm so mad at the OP that I'm not going to bother expressing my opinions about that psychologist.

hello

I feel like I completely understand what you mean! I've expressed the idea that not all gay men are the same and not all gay men are feminine. In some previous post I mentioned that gay men are still human and therefore are more complex than being just "masculine" or "feminine", "butch" or "femme", or "active" or "passive".
That is why I tried to be careful with my words and in my last posts I've mentioned that SOME gay men do tend to be more feminine than others, and that it is common.



It feels a bit like that! I'm trying to be very careful in my word choice and how I express my ideas to ensure what I'm trying to say is not misinterpreted or misunderstood. hehehe



I see what you mean and do see why that would come out as sexist, but I don't mean to say that anything tending to be feminine will influence on being passive in a relationship. It really depends on who is carrying the message of what is feminine. I think many women carry a message simply by being women and living and giving their example - but every woman portrays femininity or what it means to be a girl or a woman differently. For example, if one takes a Disney Princess, likely she'll show that being a woman is about being very, very passive and tranquil and joyful and about singing and looking beautiful or so. Now, If one takes the example of say, Madonna, with her attitude, she discretely and unknowingly shows that being a woman is about being like a dominatrix, sometimes being bitchy, sometimes cold, and very in control. Modern Britney would show a very sexual portrayal of women.
Even feminists give a message of what it is to be a woman or feminine by their example. It all really depends on who admires or looks up to them and takes their message.

Now, in Usagi's romantic relationship with Mamoru, when I say she takes the passive role, I think I simply mean to say she just simply is the woman in the relationship - whatever that may stand for. So, if a gay man or boy who tends to admire or relate to women watches Sailor Moon and somehow relates to or looks up to Usagi, it will just make sense that he'll be after a man and not a woman since Usagi likes men and has a relationship with Mamo-chan. If a gay man tends to be more masculine and yet admires Usagi, I have no idea if that will affect how he lives his sexuality, whether it's looking for a manly man to protect him, or someone to care for or both or simply someone who is just more boyish or feminine looking. I hate saying all this! It's like I'm generalizing how gay men's relationship roles are.

Now, to what you said about Usagi - it is completely true that she is more powerful and important in the series than Mamoru, and it is true that she does save him, and therefore isn't just passive. However, it is not ALL the time that Usagi saves Mamoru! In fact, most of the cases, of not all, where Usagi saves Mamoru are when it's the 'final battle'. In most regular days, it's Tuxedo Mask who comes to the rescue when Sailor Moon is in a tough spot against the monster of the day! Even if Sailor Moon usually finishes off such monster, we can't ignore that during her battle against the monster, she'll likely be aided or saved by Mamoru in when she find herself in a pinch. It obviously happens in many, many episodes.
Even in the first episode, she is helped by Tuxedo Mask when she is about to be hurt by the youma, and that's the first evident reason she starts falling for Tuxedo Mask.
I think therefore it is fair to say that Usagi does have a passive role, but furthermore, it is smarter to say that she is neither just passive or active - she's a good mix of both. And again, it's suitable to say that humans are complex and we can't just label them as being completely one thing or another - that includes our fictional heroine Usagi!



So true! It naturally isn't reserved for just gays. Sailor Moon, as well as most likely any other media, will likely influence how anyone lives their sexuality, whether it's a girl, a boy, a straight or gay or bi person - it all likely depends on who the person is observing or is most impacted by from the TV show. I think it's most likely that girls and gay males will follow the example from the female protagonists.

Thanks for your comments! This is making an interesting discussion, even if it is quite complicated.

There've been reasons for patriarchical societies to emerged in human history, such as wars, economic productions, etc., mostly due to the fact that in general men are physically stronger than women. It's just that such conditions are non-existent / rapidly disappearing in the techno-socioeconomic realities of modern times, & the old gender relationship & division of power are evidently becoming increasingly incompatible w/ the efficient running of contemporary/future societies/economies. Unfortunately, some old, outdated concepts & beliefs are still dragging on & causing troubles & conflicts. I guess that's unavoidable during the current social transition stage (as in any social transitions) - I just hope this stage can be as short & less painful as possible, & w/ fewer reactionary responses along its course.