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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:19 am 
Planeta
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^
I must say Tracey Moore emits a "Baby Spice" vibe with how she dresses and speaks in this video or maybe its me.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:46 am 
Systema Solare
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Mitsukara wrote:
However, the background/incidental music in Crystal is mostly very dull and has nothing on Arisawa Takanori's beautiful soundtrack.


I personally don't mind Takanashi's score but I do agree that it isn't as good as Arisawa's was. One major problem I have with it though is that in addition to being mostly short in length, some of them were recycled from other shows he had worked on not too long ago.

Examples:

The main transformation theme in seasons 1 & 2 (2014) was originally from Smile Precure (2012).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxP3E38O3gw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hipXANaLFos

Another tune was originally from Naruto Shippuden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2P0UF_TZ9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UxxPc60mKc (0:00-0:26)

And this one I wasn't aware of until recently but two of season 3's tunes was originally from in The Severing Crime Edge (2013) and is the most obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBoy--H8FNg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbJvK1l3plI
(can't find the other Crystal tune but it basically had a portion of both but without a beat)

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Lastly, I love the scene with Umino's bush hands. How did he sneak up on anybody like that??


I liked the online version much better.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:54 pm 
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NJ_ wrote:
And this one I wasn't aware of until recently but two of season 3's tunes was originally from in The Severing Crime Edge (2013) and is the most obvious.

This is the most egregious case. He didn't even bother changing it a little bit. ^_^'

Crystal is so lazy and cheap in literally every respect, it would be funny if it weren't so sad and pathetic. :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:57 pm 
Yoshi
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Is this a common practice?

I know one tune from 90's Stars was used frequently in Digimon.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:15 pm 
Luna Nova
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NJ_ wrote:
I liked the online version much better.

Wha? They changed the animation for the Hulu/online release??

rgveda99 wrote:
I know one tune from 90's Stars was used frequently in Digimon.

Whaaaaat? I had no idea! Do you know which one at all (by name, or where it appeared)?

Also, I forgot to mention this previously, but Moon Pride isn't a bad song either, and it was fun to see the Shitennou in an intro sequence (even if they're these less-cool Shitennou, and not that well drawn). The framing shot of Beryl cutting in on Usagi and Mamoru trying to hold hands is neat, too.

And hearing Kotono Mitsuishi play Usagi again is neat too. It's strange, though, she definitely sounds older. It gives me this strange feeling like Usagi actually is older than everybody else (which I guess kinda plays into the Silver Millenium past life thing)... it gives me this weird feeling like I'm watching just Usagi experience a weird vision or something, like when she was staring at those flowers on the way to Nehellenia's castle in Stars, like maybe if she kept staring for years then she'd see Sailor Moon Crystal happening in her mind, or something. I dunno, it's a strange effect, but I definitely like seeing her reprise the role in any case.


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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:58 pm 
Yoshi
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Mitsukara wrote:
NJ_ wrote:
I liked the online version much better.

Wha? They changed the animation for the Hulu/online release??

rgveda99 wrote:
I know one tune from 90's Stars was used frequently in Digimon.

Whaaaaat? I had no idea! Do you know which one at all (by name, or where it appeared)?


I could be wrong though. But it might be his work sounds too similar since it was made by the same composer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanori_Arisawa


I believe this to be the one I hear in Digimon around 0:06-0:16.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B_igRK6IVo

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:39 pm 
Systema Solare
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Mitsukara wrote:
NJ_ wrote:
I liked the online version much better.

Wha? They changed the animation for the Hulu/online release??


http://crystalcomparisons.com/episodes/

It's the opposite, my screencap is from the online version while yours is from the Blu-ray/TV version.

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rgveda99 wrote:
I know one tune from 90's Stars was used frequently in Digimon.

Whaaaaat? I had no idea! Do you know which one at all (by name, or where it appeared)?


He's referring to this one...

https://youtu.be/oqsVqSHisYo?t=2m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-t0BjGfmr0

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:23 pm 
Luna Nova
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Wow! It's interesting that they changed it at all, and there's a ton of little changes. Some of them look better, but some of them actually look worse! Especially when they decided to redraw faces and hair- somebody was like "NO! Rei's eyes must be SUPER POINTY at ALL TIMES!! And heads that are round, have cool flyaway hairs, and shift appropriately at different angles are no longer allowed!", and sometimes they even reduce expressiveness (shrinking Usagi's open mouth and such). Other times it's a perfectly sensible thing to fix, like pink teeth. Other other times, the faces actually were more messed up the first time, and they made them a bit better. I wonder who got to decide what changed and what stayed, whether they got the original artists involved or not.

So Umino turned starkly silhouetted partway through the scene? That would probably have made it a lot easier to tell he was under the influence.

And that sure is the same melody from certain Animamates/Phage attack scenes being reused (with different instruments) in Digimon. Interesting! At least they re-recorded it instead of using the same track wholesale.


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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:59 pm 
Luna
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At least its the same composer ripping himself off

Unlike the Dragon Ball Kai composer ripping everyone else off


or the sentai show Dairanger somehow not getting sued for ripping off the Imperial March.


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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:30 pm 
Solaris Luna
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SILVER wrote:
I'm happy that people aren't feeding into this, but I had the same thought. Its an established pattern in OP's post.


Why? All they're doing is giving a constructive criticism. Crystal did indeed alter/eliminate certain character scenes from the manga, such as:

  • Rei telling the crowd to "get lost" when she was being questioned (Act 3)
  • Makoto/Jupiter teasing Usagi saying she's a real moon bunny (Act 10)
  • Minako's CWOA being given to Usagi Sue (Act 12)

This was all I could come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:57 pm 
Luna Nova
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Don't forget that the character development of brutally melting the Shitennou's faces upon first meeting/use of Rei and Makoto's powers was eliminated, making Sailor Mars and Sailor Jupiter less accidentally(?) murderous.

And reducing grotesque corpse-melting by 100%. :dead:

Or that part where Usagi has the nightmare about Mamoru's face melting off, but still having the eyeballs inside the skull.

Or Mamoru still having the Shitennou stones after they help in the fight with Metallia.


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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:00 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Not to mention removing Rei's iconic hair flip in Act 4, eliminating her grandfather, eliminating Unazuki, removing Usagi transforming into a groom in Act 5, removing Eudial's monster form, removing Ms. Haruna's appearance from Act 2 (I forget if she appears in any other chapter of the manga after that) despite introducing her like a main character in the first episode, etc. Crystal really is not that faithful to the manga.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I mean...despite those alterations, Memento, it's still quite faithful to the manga. Being faithful or similar doesn't mean it's an exact copy. Compared to the 90s anime, the story of Crystal is MUCH closer to that of the manga. Eliminating extremely minor characters and quick scenes makes it distinct from the manga, but not necessarily dissimilar. Even the 90s anime, as different as it was from the manga, is still similar to the manga in the grand scheme of anime and stories in general.

I'm not good at quantifying things, but it seems like 90% of the manga is replicated in Crystal -- even to a fault. 10% doesn't mean it's "not that similar" or suddenly different from the manga. It's just not identical.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:02 pm 
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I'd say it's the closest manga-to-screen adaptation of them all with the story, but several things make it lose the feel of the manga, if you get what I mean? And I'm not just talking about all of the storyline changes, though I think they detracted from it too.

Personally I don't think 1 & 2's art style is very faithful to the manga. I know a lot of people will disagree and I can see why- the shapes of the bodies, the lipstick and the 'ethereal' appearance of everyone is certainly taken from the manga (or, in the least, the more 'romantic' colored artwork) but something about the way it comes together in Crystal...it just doesn't translate in a way that captures the manga imo. Especially the eyes and how stiff they all are in a lot of scenes.

However (and I know people will disagree with me), I think the season 3 artwork captures the manga in a much more effective way while adding something new. The senshi look a lot younger, yes, and they don't have the exact same faces but they really captured it well imo. I think after S1&2 failed, they decided to focus less on making exact replicas of the manga designs and moreso an infusion of the manga and something new, which imo was a complete success and the flow of the arc was very well done and faithful to the manga.

Originally I didn't feel this way (though I still loved S3's designs), until I looked at my SMC Figuarts next to a manga print, and the resemblance is uncanny. Then I looked at season 3 promos and screenshots and now I'm of the opinion that while some things are different, season three captured the feel and aesthetic in a more effective way than prior seasons- especially if you look at actual panels of the manga instead of the artwork.


Personally, and it pains me to say this because I don't enjoy PGSM, but even though it's not faithful to the manga it perfectly captures the same sort of feeling, probably because of Naoko's involvement in it.

I'm so bad at articulating my thoughts lol :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 am 
Solaris Luna
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Mitsukara wrote:
Don't forget that the character development of brutally melting the Shitennou's faces upon first meeting/use of Rei and Makoto's powers was eliminated, making Sailor Mars and Sailor Jupiter less accidentally(?) murderous.

And reducing grotesque corpse-melting by 100%. :dead:

Or that part where Usagi has the nightmare about Mamoru's face melting off, but still having the eyeballs inside the skull.

Or Mamoru still having the Shitennou stones after they help in the fight with Metallia.


MementoNepenthe wrote:
Not to mention removing Rei's iconic hair flip in Act 4, eliminating her grandfather, eliminating Unazuki, removing Usagi transforming into a groom in Act 5, removing Eudial's monster form, removing Ms. Haruna's appearance from Act 2 (I forget if she appears in any other chapter of the manga after that) despite introducing her like a main character in the first episode, etc. Crystal really is not that faithful to the manga.


Thank you both for the help, I appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:29 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Serena-Hime wrote:
I'd say it's the closest manga-to-screen adaptation of them all with the story, but several things make it lose the feel of the manga, if you get what I mean? And I'm not just talking about all of the storyline changes, though I think they detracted from it too.

Personally I don't think 1 & 2's art style is very faithful to the manga. I know a lot of people will disagree and I can see why- the shapes of the bodies, the lipstick and the 'ethereal' appearance of everyone is certainly taken from the manga (or, in the least, the more 'romantic' colored artwork) but something about the way it comes together in Crystal...it just doesn't translate in a way that captures the manga imo. Especially the eyes and how stiff they all are in a lot of scenes.

However (and I know people will disagree with me), I think the season 3 artwork captures the manga in a much more effective way while adding something new. The senshi look a lot younger, yes, and they don't have the exact same faces but they really captured it well imo. I think after S1&2 failed, they decided to focus less on making exact replicas of the manga designs and moreso an infusion of the manga and something new, which imo was a complete success and the flow of the arc was very well done and faithful to the manga.

Originally I didn't feel this way (though I still loved S3's designs), until I looked at my SMC Figuarts next to a manga print, and the resemblance is uncanny. Then I looked at season 3 promos and screenshots and now I'm of the opinion that while some things are different, season three captured the feel and aesthetic in a more effective way than prior seasons- especially if you look at actual panels of the manga instead of the artwork.


Personally, and it pains me to say this because I don't enjoy PGSM, but even though it's not faithful to the manga it perfectly captures the same sort of feeling, probably because of Naoko's involvement in it.

I'm so bad at articulating my thoughts lol :lol: :lol:


On the contrary, I'd say you articulated your thoughts very well.

To be honest, I don't think anything will be able to truly capture the manga 100%. Takeuchi's wispy transitions and sometimes-detailed/sometimes-vague backgrounds don't really translate well to the screen. The character designs of the first two Crystal arcs reminded me of the manga, but the stiffness of the animation and the constant mistakes really divorced it from feeling like the manga. Then we have the third arc of Crystal, which I really loved -- like you said, it captured the manga but in a different way. I think it was just how it was accurate to the story without looking derpy like the first two arcs.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:21 am 
Luna Nova
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John wrote:

On the contrary, I'd say you articulated your thoughts very well.

To be honest, I don't think anything will be able to truly capture the manga 100%. Takeuchi's wispy transitions and sometimes-detailed/sometimes-vague backgrounds don't really translate well to the screen. The character designs of the first two Crystal arcs reminded me of the manga, but the stiffness of the animation and the constant mistakes really divorced it from feeling like the manga. Then we have the third arc of Crystal, which I really loved -- like you said, it captured the manga but in a different way. I think it was just how it was accurate to the story without looking derpy like the first two arcs.

Thank you! I think while I type and my thoughts are usually jumbled, which is why I catch myself editing my comments to articulate my points more concisely :lol:

I agree. I think a lot of what fans wanted from the manga just isn't possible, not without a (probably) record-breaking budget because it would take significantly more frames to animate even the smallest details, such as the (incredible) way Naoko illustrates hair movement, and the simplistic backgrounds wouldn't make for a very interesting animated scene.

The S1/2 designs were reminiscent of the manga for me, but like you said, the stiffness and errors in the animation ruined it. Personally the eyes ruined it for me as well, and the constant attempts to keep the characters in pretty, elegant poses rather than show actual emotion. I mean, even the manga lacks the lipstick and 'romantic' poses for a lot of the frames.

Season 3 isn't a dead-on match to the manga but I feel like they chose the things that would translate well into animation, then added their own twist on it. Even right now I'm looking at my SMC Figuarts, which is right next to this clearfile from the exhibition and the resemblance is spot-on for Usagi, right down to the minute details of her hair and eyes. It makes me desperately hopeful that Bandai will make Crystal Figuarts of the other senshi!

To me, 1/2 attempted to (poorly) replicate the artwork style in every frame, while S3 gave similar visuals to the artwork but also provided the same variation featured in the manga while providing an excellent translation of the manga into animation.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:47 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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I think you're really hitting the nail on the head. In order to capture the still-beauty of Takeuchi's manga, an anime adaptation would need to have an insanely high budget. I just don't think it's realistic. I liked season three a lot, and it was a huge improvement over the first two arcs, but it could also have been done a lot better.

I also feel that what constitutes a Sailor Moon anime needs to be re-evaluated. The manga doesn't really have transformation scenes -- it has brief frames that don't take up much time at all. Perhaps it would be interesting to see a Sailor Moon anime that has quicker, less elaborate transformation sequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:06 am 
Luna Nova
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I am 100% onboard with the reduction of transformation sequences. Seeing them once (per upgrade) is neat, but seeing them over and over is the real filler (not cute little one-off plots or gradual character development), whether or not the animation is nice.

If they had done like Gundam and made a series of movies from editing-together important portions of the 90s anime, I can only hope they would cut out most of the transformation sequences after the first time (beyond acknowledging that they transform, like shouting the phrase.)

I also agree about the manga's art style being hard to capture in the anime. Naoko Takeushi put TON of work into little details of the hair, clothes, accessories, and faces, and that kind of detail just doesn't translate easily.

I think the floaty, dreamlike quality (the very detailed backgrounds versus the vague backgrounds) could've been captured more clearly though- that's what fog, color splashes, lighting tricks, weird indistinct geometric shapes, and so on are for.

Going back to consider all the little things that are being dropped... yeah, Crystal definitely lacks a lot! It follows the structure, and it even tried to add one or two things, but mostly it feels like they cut a bunch of corners and tries to meet generic expectations (full transformation sequences, Usagi's lack of a mask, and the elimination of the gruesome violence). That's a shame. I'll still give the rest a watch when I'm all done with the manga, though, and I'd still love to see them do Codename Sailor V.


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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:50 pm 
Solaris Luna
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As other people have said, when I talk about Crystal not really being like the manga, I'm not only taking about plot omissions and alterations, but also differences in character design/art style and feel. As I've said before, Crystal may ostensibly be closer to the manga (in terms of plot) than the 90s anime (or any other adaptation), but it also lacks the spirit of the manga; it lacks charm.

Certainly it would take a lot of time and money to truly create an animated version of the manga, but they still could have captured its feel. The 90s anime was hand drawn and I don't think had an enormous budget, yet it looked beautiful and captured the manga's charm perfectly. Crystal could have easily had the same effect if it wasn't mostly outsourced to novice studios and if the people in charge had simply cared.

Furthermore, Crystal doesn't do itself any favors by lazily using the manga as a storyboard. Every time they attempt a carbon copy of a particular panel from the manga, it just highlights how cheap and kind of ugly Crystal is in comparison to Naoko's artwork and the 90s anime. If they would just put in a tiny bit of effort and come up with O R I G I N A L shots, they wouldn't be begging unflattering comparisons so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 pm 
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
Crystal may ostensibly be closer to the manga (in terms of plot) than the 90s anime (or any other adaptation), but it also lacks the spirit of the manga; it lacks charm.

Crystal doesn't do itself any favors by lazily using the manga as a storyboard. Every time they attempt a carbon copy of a particular panel from the manga, it just highlights how cheap and kind of ugly Crystal is in comparison to Naoko's artwork and the 90s anime. If they would just put in a tiny bit of effort and come up with O R I G I N A L shots, they wouldn't be begging unflattering comparisons so much.

This, so much! Thank you for expressing how I feel so eloquently.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:42 pm 
Solaris Luna
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And, of course, it goes without saying that the lazy copy & pasting of transformation and attack stock footage from the 90s anime also highlights how bad Crystal's animation is compared to the original anime. They need to stop being lazy, start being original/creative, and stop inviting these unflattering comparisons.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:24 pm 
Luna Nova
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
And, of course, it goes without saying that the lazy copy & pasting of transformation and attack stock footage from the 90s anime also highlights how bad Crystal's animation is compared to the original anime.


This. It's one of the things I hated the most about seasons 1 and 2, the repeated transformation sequences- except they didn't even look pretty, so it was ruined twice over. I actually love the changes that S3 made with the transformations, they're obviously supposed to be updated 90's versions but they (especially the inners) added a lot of really cool visuals, especially Mars!

I second the comment about simplified transformations, or completely new versions in the least. I love the Iconic manga pose where they cross their hands in front of their chests- I would love a more elaborate version of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is SMC really that similar to the manga?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:47 am 
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Another thing I neglected to mention, regarding transformation scenes (and attacks)- if they're rendered in 3D Cel shading the way it looks like, couldn't they easily (A) put in different backgrounds, and (B) switch the camera angles around by rotating the model/3D POV? That would reduce the stock footage syndrome quite a bit.

I've completed the Black Moon arc of the manga now. If that was the entirety of Sailor Pluto's unrequited feelings for King Endymion, then that was so subtle I could've missed it, but I guess I could see it. I have to say, I still like Codename Sailor V a lot more than the primary manga so far, but it's still interesting. I liked the bit where Diana guards the space-time door for Pluto.

Saphir as a character didn't wind up as different in the manga as I expected from what everyone was saying- it was more like he and the '90s anime version were the same character up to a point, then got a choice between, "Do you want to understand what's going on, or be able to fight against it?"- the manga version took the former, and the anime version took the latter, but aside from that he seemed like the same guy to me. I'll have to see how Crystal's version of all this played out... but first, the Infinity / Dream / Stars arcs of the manga.


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