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 Post subject: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:18 pm 
Solaris Luna
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I'm going to spin-off my comment from the 90s anime thread into its own thread so we can discuss this scene in more detail:

From the official Kodansha translation of the manga:

From the end of Act 52, Stars 3:

Quote:
Lead Crow: I recognized the light of your star seeds immediately... Just show yourselves already, won't you? Heh heh.
Lead Crow: Phobos! Deimos!
Lead Crow: Long time no see, Phobos, Deimos!
Phobos and Deimos: ...Lead Crow...!


From the beginning of Act 53, Stars 4:

Quote:
Lead Crow: Phobos, Deimos... Your powers were selected by the princess of Mars, the planet that shines most sublimely in the Milky Way... You were granted your names and corresponding moons, and became the princess's partners...you lucky twins!
Lead Crow: We were once fellow soldier trainees, each with our own dreams, remember? But I am no longer that young thing! I am Sailor Lead Crow, a Sailor Guardian!
Phobos and Deimos: A Sailor Guardian?!
Lead Crow: All creatures that live in the Milky Way possess star seeds... And among them, those who possess select star seeds, the Sailor Crystals, are entitled to claim the title "Sailor Guardian!"
Phobos and Deimos: But the only one who may call herself Sailor Guardian on our planet Coronis is she who defends it...Sailor Coronis, alone!


And, just in case anyone's interested, here's Tokyopop's somewhat wonky translation of this scene:

Quote:
LC: I saw your Star Seed lights from miles away. Come on out. Phobos! Deimos! It's been a while, Phobos, Deimos!
P&D: Red Crow! :sick:
LC: Phobos, Deimos. The lucky twins selected by the princess of the brightest star in the galaxy, Mars, of the solar system. We were all in training then. But it's different now! I am Sailor Red Crow, a Sailor Scout!
P&D: A Sailor Scout?!
LC: All of us in this galaxy carry a Star Seed. Only ones with chosen Star Seeds, the Sailor Crystals, can call themselves a Sailor Scout! On star Kronos, :sick: I am the one, the only, Sailor Kronos!


(MissDream's translation is completely wrong so I'm not gonna even bother transcribing it.)

Tokyopop's translation, inaccurate transliterations aside, doesn't seem to contradict the Kodansha translation in any way; it's just much more simplified. So, assuming the Kodansha translation is correct (or, at least, not misleading), this scene raises a LOT of issues to discuss:

1. Phobos and Deimos recognize Lead Crow immediately by name. "Lead Crow" is not some assumed name she's using; it's her actual name. This suggests that Galaxia completely coincidentally happened to find a group of women throughout the Milky Way who were power hungry and willing to join her who all just happened to have metal + animal names.

2. "All creatures in the Milky Way have star seeds..." So what about those who live outside the Milky Way? Or is the implication here that there is no life outside the Milky Way?

3. Lead Crow says Sailor Crystals entitle their possessors to the title of "Sailor Guardian" but that doesn't necessarily mean those without a Sailor Crystal can't call themselves "Sailor Guardians." (Also, regardless of what Naoko may have said after the fact, nothing in the actual text of the manga says only women can be Sailor Guardians, so presumably Mamoru could call himself "Sailor Earth" or "Sailor Tuxedo Mask" if he wanted to.)

4. What are Phobos and Demios's powers? I don't think we ever see them use any special attacks or really do much of anything besides present Rei with the Mars Crystal in the Dream arc.

5. There is obviously some close link between the planets of Coronis and Mars. I wish this could be explored more as I find it very interesting. Why is there this alliance between these planets? Sailor Coronis is the only of the usurped Sailor Guardians we get any kind of glimpse of and she sort of resembles Sailor Mars. I wonder if there's some sort of connection/relation there? I also wonder if the other planets of our Solar System had similar relationships/alliances with extrasolar planets. And if Princess Mars could just recruit partners from Coronis, did Princess Coronis ever recruit partners from Mars?

6. Phobos, Deimos, and Lead Crow were all soldiers in training together. I'd love to learn more about that specifically. It could make for a great one-shot or even possibly a whole spin-off series.

7. Mars apparently went to Coronis and not only hand-picked Phobos and Deimos to be her partners, she also named and gave moons to them. (Possibly she created the moons for them? In which case, do all the Sailors have moon making powers?) What were Phobos and Deimos's birth names then? And did she name them for the moons/her castle or did she name the moons/her castle after she named them?

8. What were Phobos, Deimos, and Lead Crow's dreams?

9. Since Mars hand-picked her partners, does that mean Venus and Queen Serenity likewise traveled to Mau and handpicked Artemis and Luna? / Why did Artemis and Luna travel to separate 'planets' in our solar system? Why not go from Mau to the same planet? Or did they not know each other on Mau and came to our solar system separately?

10. What about Mercury and Jupiter? (And the Outers?) Did they have any extrasolar partners? If not, why not? If Serenity could have Luna and the Inners, Venus could have her Artemis and her own army (which included Danburite/Adonis), Endymion could have the Four Generals, and Mars could have Phobos and Deimos, why would/should the other Sailors not have partners/armies/guardians of their own?

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:14 am 
Stella
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Interesting ideas MementoNepenthe. However I will say this I always heard that Phobos and Deimos actually had Sailor Crystals like the Senshi and were appointed as Guardians over Mars's two Moons. However it is interesting that Lead Crow trained with the two. However I do think they are different. In the manga atleast Lead Crow got her Sailor Senshi powers by stealing the Star Seed of Sailor Coronis. Where as Phobos and Deimos were given Guardianship over Mars's Moons. Oh you might like this I actually did a picture of how Deimos and Phobos would look as Sailor Senshi as in my fic I made them Sailor Mars's Sailor Guardians.

https://mariatenebre.deviantart.com/art ... 1510790457

However you do have a good point. Whether the other Senshi of the Solar System had Guardians or not hasn't been said. However I imagine that all of the planets like Venus probably had armies to protect them. However it seems like only Sailor Moon, Sailor Mars and Sailor Venus had Guardian Animals. Interestingly enough in the Dream arc while Sailor Mercury and Sailor Jupiter were given their Sailor Crystals by their Sailor Power Guardians. Which the Sailor Power Guardian thing never made sense to me. Sailor Mars and Sailor Venus were given their Sailor Crystals by Phobos and Deimos and Artemis respectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:19 am 
Solaris Luna
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Don't get me wrong; I love the idea of Phobos and Deimos being Sailor Guardians (and your designs for them are awesome!). I was just pointing out to you that, as far as the manga is concerned (and, so far, the manga is the only version of Sailor Moon where this has come up), Phobos and Deimos are not Sailors and do not have Sailor Crystals, only regular star seeds.

I wouldn't necessarily mind a revival of "Sailor Luna" (perhaps in a new adaptation of the Snow Princess Kaguya story in order to differentiate it a bit from the S movie?) as a one-off thing, but I wouldn't want it to be a regular thing. I don't mind Luna getting a one-off human form, but I never liked her having it in the series proper, along with Artemis and Diana having human forms, because it didn't feel consistent with the Kaguya story and it also just came out of nowhere, along with their whole Mautian origins thing.

Conversely, I'd be much more receptive to a Sailor Phobos and a Sailor Deimos because Phobos and Deimos are basically blank slates. Even though they *should* be the ones to give Rei her transformation pen/awaken her as Sailor Mars, even though they should be talking and active in helping out the Sailors from the start, the fact that they make barely any appearances / have almost no impact on the series until the Dream arc (and even then they only make a very brief appearance) means that I don't have any strongly formed ideas about them, so I'm more willing to accept changes to them / more willing to accept their Coronis origins backstory. (It helps that that gets somewhat expounded upon in their little exchange with Lead Crow. Luna and Artemis's exchange with Tin Nyanko is much briefer, doesn't go into any kind of depth about Mau or how Luna and Artemis ended up in the solar system living on the moon and Venus, and Tin Nynako's attack renders them speechless, literally preventing us from gaining any more information on the subject. As a result, that whole thing just feels like a really bad retcon to me.)

So....yeah. I really hope when Crystal gets to Stars, they'll give us more information on Coronis and Mau.

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:55 am 
Stella
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
Don't get me wrong; I love the idea of Phobos and Deimos being Sailor Guardians (and your designs for them are awesome!). I was just pointing out to you that, as far as the manga is concerned (and, so far, the manga is the only version of Sailor Moon where this has come up), Phobos and Deimos are not Sailors and do not have Sailor Crystals, only regular star seeds.

I wouldn't necessarily mind a revival of "Sailor Luna" (perhaps in a new adaptation of the Snow Princess Kaguya story in order to differentiate it a bit from the S movie?) as a one-off thing, but I wouldn't want it to be a regular thing. I don't mind Luna getting a one-off human form, but I never liked her having it in the series proper, along with Artemis and Diana having human forms, because it didn't feel consistent with the Kaguya story and it also just came out of nowhere, along with their whole Mautian origins thing.

Conversely, I'd be much more receptive to a Sailor Phobos and a Sailor Deimos because Phobos and Deimos are basically blank slates. Even though they *should* be the ones to give Rei her transformation pen/awaken her as Sailor Mars, even though they should be talking and active in helping out the Sailors from the start, the fact that they make barely any appearances / have almost no impact on the series until the Dream arc (and even then they only make a very brief appearance) means that I don't have any strongly formed ideas about them, so I'm more willing to accept changes to them / more willing to accept their Coronis origins backstory. (It helps that that gets somewhat expounded upon in their little exchange with Lead Crow. Luna and Artemis's exchange with Tin Nyanko is much briefer, doesn't go into any kind of depth about Mau or how Luna and Artemis ended up in the solar system living on the moon and Venus, and Tin Nynako's attack renders them speechless, literally preventing us from gaining any more information on the subject. As a result, that whole thing just feels like a really bad retcon to me.)

So....yeah. I really hope when Crystal gets to Stars, they'll give us more information on Coronis and Mau.

Well as for Luna and Artemis maybe when they were cryogenically frozen they forgot about their ability to transform into humans. I mean they forgot much about the Silver Millennium in their cryo sleep like who the Princess was, the name of the enemy organization they were fighting etc. I don't feel their their Mau origins and ability to have human forms contradicts the Kaguya story. However it would have been nice to maybe have an episode on the 90s anime or an act where Luna and Artemis recover their memories about their origins in Mau and gain the ability to transform into humans full time. That could have been a nice act for say something in the Dream arc. Maybe it could be an act focused on Luna, Artemis and the other Moon Cats.

Also you might be interested to know that I based Sailor Deimos and Sailor Phobos's outfit on Sailor Luna's outfit even though I find the existence of Sailor Luna as was done in PGSM to not make any sense.

That being said I don't think that it was stated that Phobos and Deimos's Sailor Crystals were normal non Senshi Star Seeds. I mean actually they were stated to be given Phobos and Deimos as Moons and given that in Sailor Moon it is implied that every celestial object has a Senshi I feel it is safe to say that they would be the Senshi of Phobos and Deimos. Besides didn't Sailor Lead Crow take their Star Seeds. Shadow Galactica is not interested in non Senshi Star Seeds so why would she take them if they were ordinary Star Seeds?

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:36 am 
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The Cats and Crows having human forms all show up before Stars, Luna obviously first appearing in the Lover of Princess Kaguya side story which was adapted into the movie. Artemis I believe first appeared that way in the Dream arc, to save a Civillain-Form Mode-Locked Venus from falling to her death. Phobos and Deimos appear in the same arc to present Mars with the Mars Crystal.

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:38 pm 
Solaris Luna
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MariaTenebre wrote:
That being said I don't think that it was stated that Phobos and Deimos's Sailor Crystals were normal non Senshi Star Seeds. I mean actually they were stated to be given Phobos and Deimos as Moons and given that in Sailor Moon it is implied that every celestial object has a Senshi I feel it is safe to say that they would be the Senshi of Phobos and Deimos. Besides didn't Sailor Lead Crow take their Star Seeds. Shadow Galactica is not interested in non Senshi Star Seeds so why would she take them if they were ordinary Star Seeds?


Phobos and Deimos are only referred to as having star seeds, not Sailor Crystals. When Lead Crow introduces herself as Sailor Lead Crow, Phobos and Deimos express surprise/disgust because the only Sailor Guardian on/from their planet is Sailor Coronis, which suggests further to me that Phobos and Deimos do not have Sailor Crystals. When Lead Crow kills Phobos and Deimos, we see their star seeds (which do have the same generic diamond/crystal shape that the Sailor Crystals we see all have), but Lead Crow doesn't take them. Eternal Sailor Moon immediately shows up and kills Lead Crow, then Galaxia shows up, kills Mars and Venus, and takes their Sailor Crystals. She doesn't take Phobos and Deimos's star seeds (which just seem to disappear).

That said, if the moons Phobos and Deimos were to have Sailor Guardians, it would make the most sense for Rei's Phobos and Deimos to have those roles.

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:12 pm 
Luna Crescens
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
What are Phobos and Demios's powers? I don't think we ever see them use any special attacks or really do much of anything besides present Rei with the Mars Crystal in the Dream arc.


In act 3 they sort of telelorted to Rei when she summouned them. And If I remember correctly they impaled Tiger's Eye with weathers in Dream. Though they probably can't do that in their human forms. It was also implied that they have a sixth sense/precognition like Rei does.

Honestly, I never liked them having human forms. It's just so random and poorly thought out. They were pretty much trapped in the birds' bodies for 16+ years without being able to speak. That's just...wow. Did Queen Serenity hate them?

By the way I like that bit about Mars being being the brightest planet in the Milky Way. Sailor Mars - best senshi confirmed :love:


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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Zyvik wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:

Honestly, I never liked them having human forms. It's just so random and poorly thought out. They were pretty much trapped in the birds' bodies for 16+ years without being able to speak. That's just...wow. Did Queen Serenity hate them?



Mars could understand them since she was child, even though they were in bird form.

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 Post subject: Re: Phobos, Deimos, Coronis, Mars
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:58 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Zyvik wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
What are Phobos and Demios's powers? I don't think we ever see them use any special attacks or really do much of anything besides present Rei with the Mars Crystal in the Dream arc.


In act 3 they sort of telelorted to Rei when she summouned them. And If I remember correctly they impaled Tiger's Eye with weathers in Dream. Though they probably can't do that in their human forms. It was also implied that they have a sixth sense/precognition like Rei does.

Honestly, I never liked them having human forms. It's just so random and poorly thought out. They were pretty much trapped in the birds' bodies for 16+ years without being able to speak. That's just...wow. Did Queen Serenity hate them?

By the way I like that bit about Mars being being the brightest planet in the Milky Way. Sailor Mars - best senshi confirmed :love:


ESP and teleportation aren't exactly exceptional powers for someone to have in the Sailor Moon universe, and generating feather storms is also probably not an uncommon ability among the soldiers of Coronis, so I feel like Phobos and Deimos should have some other power(s) that would have made them stand out and attract Mars's attention.

I do agree with your last point though: Sailor Mars for new Sailor Team leader 2017!

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