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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:06 pm 
Planeta
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I feel you did not understand the nature of my post, Mara.

Both "Sailor Moon" and "Magic Knight Rayearth" are shows for kids and pre-adolescents. I watched them both when I was 12-14.

If you think you are gay and you feel bad for being gay (because society has told you that you are evil, a sinner, a loser, among other things), then a character like Zoisite tells the same narrative as society.

When I watched "Magic Knight Rayearth," I felt good about myself because the show depicted possibly more than one gay character in a positive light and the narrative being told was vastly different than that told by Zoisite's character in "Sailor Moon."

I can only talk about my experience --and not everybody else's experience: "Magic Knight Rayearth" made me feel reassured about many things about myself as a gay kid (a kid looking for reassurance and validation that he could not find anywhere else), whereas "Sailor Moon" did not.

With that being said, I will politely excuse myself from this discussion because I think I made my point clear --and if I didn't, my apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:56 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Ryo Urawa wrote:
John wrote:
Ryo Urawa wrote:
^^^how in the blue hell could Nephrite redeem himself when he got killed? also I liked Zoisite and Kunzite as a couple because I'm all for diversity and I don't see them as stereotypes as Zoisite was a capable fighter (not a very brave one but still) and besides as Maria stated to call them Stereotypes you'd have to say the same about Michiru and Haruka as they were the same ☹ thing just female


That's what I'm saying...he didn't get a chance to redeem himself, they just killed him off and left it at that. The writers didn't bother trying to redeem him.

Haruka and Michiru are NOT the same thing...they're heroes (so they're not portrayed as villains) and they don't die -- at least not permanent deaths, which are the ones that count. Though maybe some lesbians out there feel differently about them. If anything you can say they're anti-heroes, sort of, but they're definitely not villainous.

It doesn't matter if Zoisite was a capable fighter -- he was depicted as incredibly feminine and a villain. That is a trope for gay men in film and television going back decades. That's undeniable.


^^lots of gay guys are feminine there's nothing wrong with that and just because Haruka and Michiru are heroes there not stereotypes? smh do you realize how stupid you sound right now?
Ryo Urawa wrote:
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^^^not counting Maria this just about sums up this thread for me

No personal attacks.
_______

Effeminate men, at least in their appearance if not also their personality, & whether they're gay or not, have long been depicted as villains in anime, somewhat like a tradition - a classic example is Gatchaman, in which the successive main villains are all like that.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:07 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Honestly, I see where John is coming from and his experience as a gay man should actually be relevant to pointing out problems with the Zoisite Kunzite pairing. I mean I like Kunzoi, but I'm not going to pretend that there's no problems with it (and the overused yaoi trope).


I agree with this.

Also wanted to point out that just because someone states that something is stereotypical, does not mean that they're trying to police others' likes and dislikes.
I thought the whole point of this thread was to voice opinions?

Anyway.

-I like Usagi x Mamoru in every incarnation of the series except for the 90's anime. -3- In the 90's anime, I like Usagi x Seiya.
-Michiru x Haruka is best.
-I never understood the appeal in Naru x Nephrite.
-Rei x Yuuichirou is ok, I guess. I don't dislike it, but I still prefer Rei x Minako.
-Hotaru x Peruru is my crack!OTP, but I also ship Hotaru with Chibiusa. :innocent:
-I don't really like Helios x Chibiusa, to be honest. Although I'd like to read the Dream Arc again.
- My other OTPs are Ami x Zoisite and Makoto x Asanuma, although I also like Kunzite x Zoisite and Ami x Rei.

I don't hate any of the pairings, but there are a few I just can't get on board with. :o


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:53 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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John wrote:
Kunzite and Zoisite play into negative stereotypes for gay male characters in the 90s anime: they're villains, they both get killed off, and Zoisite in particular is offensive to feminine gay men. If you're not a gay man then maybe you should step off a bit here, you're entitled to your opinions but please let the gay men speak for themselves when it comes to what we find offensive vs. what we don't (and I'm sure other gay men don't find Zoisite and Kunzite offensive, and that's fine for those guys).

As a gay male Sailor Moon fan, while I would have liked to have seen more positive gay male portrayals in the series, I don't know that I would say Zoisite and Kunzite is an offensive stereotype. They are evil but their sexuality is never connected to their villiany. They're just villains that happen to be gay much like Tetis' feelings for Jadeite even though she's also a villain. Sailor Moon is also a product of the early 90s and I don't think it's fair to judge the writers' motivations based on modern 2017 standards of what our expectations of LGBTQ media representation should be. If someone wanted to use negative reprsentations of gay characters in anime to justify their homophobia, I feel like Sailor Moon would be hard for them to twist to their agenda and I feel like Sailor Moon fandom is generally LGBTQ friendly.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:10 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Clow wrote:
When I watched "Magic Knight Rayearth," I felt good about myself because the show depicted possibly more than one gay character in a positive light and the narrative being told was vastly different than that told by Zoisite's character in "Sailor Moon."

I can only talk about my experience --and not everybody else's experience: "Magic Knight Rayearth" made me feel reassured about many things about myself as a gay kid (a kid looking for reassurance and validation that he could not find anywhere else), whereas "Sailor Moon" did not.
:
Doesn't MKR have Nova who is kind of a negative Psycho Lesbian trope?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:43 pm 
Planeta
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Neon Genesis wrote:
Clow wrote:
When I watched "Magic Knight Rayearth," I felt good about myself because the show depicted possibly more than one gay character in a positive light and the narrative being told was vastly different than that told by Zoisite's character in "Sailor Moon."

I can only talk about my experience --and not everybody else's experience: "Magic Knight Rayearth" made me feel reassured about many things about myself as a gay kid (a kid looking for reassurance and validation that he could not find anywhere else), whereas "Sailor Moon" did not.
:
Doesn't MKR have Nova who is kind of a negative Psycho Lesbian trope?


Nova represents the negative side of Hikaru, the heroine.

Hikaru hated herself because she killed Princess Emeraude and her emotions gave birth to Nova. By the end of the season 2, Nova returns to the place she belongs: Hikaru's heart.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:58 pm 
Stella
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is there any lesbian members on this forum? if so what's your opinion on Kunzite/Zoisite and Michiru/Haruka? I only ask out of sheer curiosity

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:24 pm 
Stella
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Clow wrote:
I feel you did not understand the nature of my post, Mara.

Both "Sailor Moon" and "Magic Knight Rayearth" are shows for kids and pre-adolescents. I watched them both when I was 12-14.

If you think you are gay and you feel bad for being gay (because society has told you that you are evil, a sinner, a loser, among other things), then a character like Zoisite tells the same narrative as society.

When I watched "Magic Knight Rayearth," I felt good about myself because the show depicted possibly more than one gay character in a positive light and the narrative being told was vastly different than that told by Zoisite's character in "Sailor Moon."

I can only talk about my experience --and not everybody else's experience: "Magic Knight Rayearth" made me feel reassured about many things about myself as a gay kid (a kid looking for reassurance and validation that he could not find anywhere else), whereas "Sailor Moon" did not.

With that being said, I will politely excuse myself from this discussion because I think I made my point clear --and if I didn't, my apologies.

Here is a :cookie:

Well allow me to post my opinion.

I grew up in a very homophobic environment. I was basically raised in the Bible Belt by fundie Christians. As you can imagine I didn't have a positive view of gay or trans people or myself because of the upbringing and the faith I was raised in.

Now me personally when I found out about the LGBT characters on Sailor Moon I indeed felt better about my sexuality including with regards to Zoisite and Kunzite. Yes Zoisite is vicious but so are pretty much all of the other Shitennou. People tend to blame him for Nephrite's death but really Nephrite treated Zoisite every bit as bad as Zoisite treated him. They both were equally as cruel to one another. However when I saw Kunzite and Zoisite together I saw a couple that genuinely loved one another and was devoted to one another. Zoisite's death was even portrayed very tragically and it even caused me to tear up. Their relationship was never portrayed in a bad light but really as a positive side of their characters.

Likewise I also loved Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune who were a lesbian couple and definitely heroes and I also liked Fisheye in SuperS who started out as a villain but turned good in the end. The Starlights were meh but I say this mainly because I didn't like how they took screen time away from the Outers and I think how they were executed with the whole gender change was just weird. Plus you can't say they are trans as their true forms are girls and they identify as girls and once they go back to Kinmoku they will stay as girls. Seiya however is definitely a lesbian with her love for Usagi and Kakyuu. I always however saw Yaten as a heterosexual female.

Now I agree I don't think that Sailor Moon's treatment of LGBT people was as progressive as most CLAMP series but I don't think they did a bad job. I do agree I would have liked to have seen more straight up heroic gay males but really Sailor Moon doesn't have many heroic males to begin with. We have Tuxedo Mask who is the male Senshi of Earth but we never got the opportunity to see other male Senshi. As I mentioned before one thing I would have done to remedy this was have the Shitennou turn good and be revived and become Tuxedo Mask's team. A lot of stuff could be explored like maybe Zoisite and Nephrite reconciling and we would have a gay heroic couple with Zoisite and Kunzite. I also would have made the Starlights into full blown male Senshi akin to Tuxedo Mask and would have probably given them redesigns in their looks. Their personalities would still be the same. Seiya who would be male would still crush on Usagi and Kakyuu etc. I would also have made Yaten into a gay male character.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about the relationships in this show?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:54 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Interesting analysis and topics.

Usagi and Mamoru's relationship: I know the reasons why some people view them as the worst couple on the show, and I respect that it's your opinion, but is it really that hard to see the "love -hate " thing? I mean it's so cliche that it's right up under the whole love at first sight scenario. I also get that people think they only liked each other after the whole TM and SM reveal, but that just probably made them open up more and feel closer than before. It doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't feel anything before and just suddenly fangirling over each other (lmao I can't believe I just said that).
Crystal: their relationship bores me. Not to mention the fact that Usagi just sits there and let's herself be kissed by three other people (I guess I can exclude Demande since she did push him off).

Haruka and Michiru: They're pretty much good. Though I don't understand why people are okay with them flirting around with other people, when Usagi does the same things or just finds a guy cute, and people just use this as a reason why UsaMamo (whatever their ship name is) don't love each other and yaddda yaddda yaaada. UsaMamo are not even my OTP (I don't think I really have an anime OTP except for maybe Rin xShiemi) , but for the most part, they're ok.

ReixYuichiro-I love them. I wish their relationship was more developed and explored.
Amix Ryo- They were cute. I also wished that their relationship was explored more.

Naru and Nephrite - well they were ok, tbh, I purposefully didn't let myself get too invested into their ship because I knew hat it wouldn't last.

Naru and Umino- -Cute and funny

Minako and Yaten - Since they both seem straight, I would have liked them together if Yaten was really a male.

Makoto and Asanuma- Adorable

Makoto and that Training monk (from S). They would have had a lot in common

Rei x Mamoru- lol they were doomed from the start tbh. We knew this wouldn't last.


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