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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:20 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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doctorwho29 wrote:
imaginationgirl wrote:
doctorwho29 wrote:
I'm just saying the DiC version missed out on some cool stuff, some of it related to plot in one way or another

The thing is most of them didn't. The Dinosaur and monster mash episode. Also it is better to not use sailor moon uncencered they tend to lie, and exaggerate the edits.


That's the same two episodes you used before and I think those are great episodes. The manga had lots of side stories unrelated to the main villains. Why can't the anime. I just don't see why whole episodes had to go especially when Sailor Says (oh how I hate that) used scenes from deleted episodes anyway

Sailor Says was not Dic fault they were required to add educational segments.The mana really dosen't have a lot of side stories .The thing with thoes are they were extra episodes . They weren't even published in the main magazine.My point was the episodes they skipped were filler . There were not really important in the grand scheme of things. Anime dubbing is expensive its 10,000 thousand dollars to license an episode.I can see why they skip unimportant episodes to save money.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:29 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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The episode where Luna joined the family isn't important? I guess you can skip it but it still feels like it's missing something


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:39 pm 
Luna Nova
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doctorwho29 wrote:
I could have mentioned the scene transitions, the pointless effects and lightning, the questionable voices (Molly's accent), and continuity errors.


I always quite liked Molly's voice. The point? One mans trash is another mans treasure. It's an opinion not fact.

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True another company had taken over by then but it's a similar treatment.

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I just don't like the DiC/Cloverway dub that much. I'll occasionally watch select episodes but I just wish they had treated better and less carelessly.

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And I've never noticed Sailor Moon Uncensored to be that exaggerated. i used to watch Cloverway episodes a lot (it was the best I had) and I noticed that that Uncensored is usually right. Maybe their opinions are a bit strong but the facts are there.


You seem to be basing a lot of your disdain for the original dub on Cloverway's work (which isn't even the 90's), which from what you've said is what you've seen the most of. Isn't that a little unfair to judge the work DiC did based on what Cloverway did after DiC were no longer involved?
You've mention a lot of issues with the quartet/the trio/Zirconia who are all S or Super S ( haven't seen anything past R), so again your issue is with what Cloverway did, not DiC. Again, not the 90's, which is actually even less excusable than what DiC did, as Cloverway were working on 2000/01, a point where things were improving in the dub scene (how much improvement is debatable, I know).

I'm not trying to say that DiC are holier than thou, a little more consistency with the attack names would have nice, as having the missing episode would have been cool. But let's be honest, very few 90's cartoons would give us an entire episode to a minor plot point (yes, minor, cause in the grand scheme of things it's a grain of sand on the beach) about why the talking animal guardian is living with the show's protaganist and their family. Yes, it would have nice, but I'm not going to quibble about not having gotten that episode.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:19 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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One other point to be made if Sailor Moon was dubbed uncut back in the 90s, I don't think the voice acting would have been as good. Anime dubbing was still in it's infancy back then and most uncut anime dubs usually had very wooden acting performances and atrocious name pronounciations. Probably the most popular anime Viz was dubbing in the 90s was Ranma 1/2. While not the worst mid 90s dubbing I've heard, it is still very dated and lacking in emotion compared to a lot of modern dubs. In comparison most anime dubbed as kids shows for American TV usually had pretty solid voice acting. For all the problems they were infamous for, 4Kids dubs like Pokemon and Yugioh usually had fairly impressive voice acting performances and most Saban dubs had pretty good voice acting too. I think even most critics of the DiC dub would admit the voice acting for the first two seasons at least were the best part of the old dub. And I don't think we would have gotten the same kind of quality voice acting if Sailor Moon was dubbed the same as most typical uncut anime were back then. It's only been in recent years in the post Cowboy Bebop era that anime dubs have reached a higher standard of quality work that was respectful of the original.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:24 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Both DiC and Cloverway had their problems. I have seem far less of DiC I'll admit but I think that's because of what episodes I did see. I really wasn't that interested in seeing anymore of them. I only watched the Cloverway ones I did because they claimed to be uncut but the dialogue still left much to be desired. I still have complaints I haven't mentioned (Crane Machine Joe getting a totally new personality is one) but I've made my point and I'm done. It's silly to debate at such length like this.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:01 am 
Planeta
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Sabrblade wrote:
PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
^ I know all about the very strict standards of broadcast television. I was mostly speaking about Toonami, which was on cable. Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon were both able to get away with a LOT more there than in broadcast syndication. Any edits to the Viz dub would be pretty similar, if not identical, to what we saw to S and SuperS.
Toonami didn't start getting anime until the end of the 90s, and at which point the only anime it was airing in those years was nothing but edited anime. They didn't start airing less edited/unedited anime until the 2000s, which is after the point in time that is the subject of this discussion.

And what's more is that, even during that point when Toonami was airing less edited/unedited anime, Sailor Moon still only ever aired on Toonami in edited form. So if the DiC and Cloverway dubs were incapable of being aired on Toonami in uncut form at a time when Toonami was starting to be more lenient with the anime dubs that they were airing during the daytime, what hope would the Viz dub have in airing uncut during the decade before Toonami starting being that lenient?


I was talking about a hypothetical situation where Sailor Moon went straight to Toonami, around the time S/SuperS actually premiered. It still would've been edited, but not remotely as much as DiC. S and SuperS usually had less than 20 seconds cut per episode.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:25 am 
Luna Nova
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Neon Genesis wrote:
One other point to be made if Sailor Moon was dubbed uncut back in the 90s, I don't think the voice acting would have been as good. Anime dubbing was still in it's infancy back then and most uncut anime dubs usually had very wooden acting performances and atrocious name pronounciations. Probably the most popular anime Viz was dubbing in the 90s was Ranma 1/2. While not the worst mid 90s dubbing I've heard, it is still very dated and lacking in emotion compared to a lot of modern dubs. In comparison most anime dubbed as kids shows for American TV usually had pretty solid voice acting. For all the problems they were infamous for, 4Kids dubs like Pokemon and Yugioh usually had fairly impressive voice acting performances and most Saban dubs had pretty good voice acting too. I think even most critics of the DiC dub would admit the voice acting for the first two seasons at least were the best part of the old dub. And I don't think we would have gotten the same kind of quality voice acting if Sailor Moon was dubbed the same as most typical uncut anime were back then. It's only been in recent years in the post Cowboy Bebop era that anime dubs have reached a higher standard of quality work that was respectful of the original.


I honestly think you are underselling the quality of work Ocean Group was doing in those days I mean Ranma 1/2 in my opinion has a great dub that completely holds up with no shortage of emotion put into it especially when compared to the stuff that Viz is doing these days which is most definitely in my opinion extremely emotionally stunted. I think for the most part Funimation puts out the best work in general but I feel like Canada really should make a come back in the anime dubbing scene.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:07 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Ranma was an ok dub but I was just using as an example of there's a big difference in quality in most of the stuff that came out in the 90s and modern dubs from Viz like Naruto and One Punch Man.


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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:27 pm 
Systema Solare
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Image

WordFit, the reason why Ocean dubs in the 90s & early 00s had mixed results and as for what WordFit is, here's an accurate description:

https://fandompost.vbulletin.net/forum/ ... post368835

Quote:
Quote:
If I remember some interviews or behind the scenes specials correctly, WordFit was a system used to to adjust pitch, speed and other aspects of an audio track to get recorded lines a near exact match for lip flaps, rather than re-record a mistimed line in the studio. Googling "wordfit system" gets you a few hits, but TV Tropes states it manipulates mouth flaps.


Ocean used the WordFit program to manipulate audio to match mouth flaps, so that they could just bring in voice actors and have them blow through recording sessions with minimal takes in order to keep production output high and costs low. The results were... of wildly varying quality, as you might expect, and was a major contributor to the lingering impression of Ocean as a lackluster dubbing studio.

The shame of that legacy, of course, is that the past decade resulted in many dubs that were equal to or better than ones coming out of the U.S. Black Lagoon easily gets the most attention, but the others aren't slouches, whether you're talking about Vancouver (Ocean Studios) or Calgary (Blue Water Studios). The Strawberry Marshmallow dub is one of my personal top 10. The Gundam 00 dub is overall one of the stronger dubs I've heard in years.


https://twitter.com/bunnycartoon/status ... 9027088385
https://twitter.com/bunnycartoon/status ... 9099396096

Quote:
For those who're younger, Wordfit was basically a program that counted lipflaps in anime to help write dub scripts that'd "fit" the dialog. A good idea in theory, but would often be the reason for awkward pauses in dub dialog back in the day.


My favorites from that time were the 3 uncut DBZ movies (much better than FUNimation's in-house redub) while Fatal Fury, Night Warriors and what little I saw of Gundam Wing were okay. Haven't watched enough of the Ranma dub but it was so-so from the first season episodes I did watch dubbed. The worst goes to Angel Links which was one of Blue Water's early dubs (no idea why Bandai went to them as their Outlaw Star dub was in LA).

Anyway, once Ocean stopped using WordFit, their dub quality got better for the most part, same goes for Blue Water.

blondibear_17 wrote:
I think for the most part Funimation puts out the best work in general but I feel like Canada really should make a come back in the anime dubbing scene.


Too bad FUNi's writing has left a lot to be desired. Their voice acting's mostly fine but they have taken too many liberties in recent years with their dub scripts to the point of causing controversy for some shows (see Attack on Titan, Prison School, season 2 of Free, the second half of Garo season 1 and most recently with Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid).

I would be all for an Ocean comeback (especially if it includes Blue Water) but sadly that's not happening anytime soon for reasons. I would also say the same for New York dubs but there's still NYAV being hired for some stuff (like Your Name & the new Gundam Seed redub) and a lot of those voice actors have been moving to LA anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: If aired in the 90s, would the Viz dub have been as popular?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:11 am 
Luna Nova
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NJ_ wrote:
Image

WordFit, the reason why Ocean dubs in the 90s & early 00s had mixed results and as for what WordFit is, here's an accurate description:

https://fandompost.vbulletin.net/forum/ ... post368835

Quote:
Quote:
If I remember some interviews or behind the scenes specials correctly, WordFit was a system used to to adjust pitch, speed and other aspects of an audio track to get recorded lines a near exact match for lip flaps, rather than re-record a mistimed line in the studio. Googling "wordfit system" gets you a few hits, but TV Tropes states it manipulates mouth flaps.


Ocean used the WordFit program to manipulate audio to match mouth flaps, so that they could just bring in voice actors and have them blow through recording sessions with minimal takes in order to keep production output high and costs low. The results were... of wildly varying quality, as you might expect, and was a major contributor to the lingering impression of Ocean as a lackluster dubbing studio.

The shame of that legacy, of course, is that the past decade resulted in many dubs that were equal to or better than ones coming out of the U.S. Black Lagoon easily gets the most attention, but the others aren't slouches, whether you're talking about Vancouver (Ocean Studios) or Calgary (Blue Water Studios). The Strawberry Marshmallow dub is one of my personal top 10. The Gundam 00 dub is overall one of the stronger dubs I've heard in years.


https://twitter.com/bunnycartoon/status ... 9027088385
https://twitter.com/bunnycartoon/status ... 9099396096

Quote:
For those who're younger, Wordfit was basically a program that counted lipflaps in anime to help write dub scripts that'd "fit" the dialog. A good idea in theory, but would often be the reason for awkward pauses in dub dialog back in the day.


My favorites from that time were the 3 uncut DBZ movies (much better than FUNimation's in-house redub) while Fatal Fury, Night Warriors and what little I saw of Gundam Wing were okay. Haven't watched enough of the Ranma dub but it was so-so from the first season episodes I did watch dubbed. The worst goes to Angel Links which was one of Blue Water's early dubs (no idea why Bandai went to them as their Outlaw Star dub was in LA).

Anyway, once Ocean stopped using WordFit, their dub quality got better for the most part, same goes for Blue Water.

blondibear_17 wrote:
I think for the most part Funimation puts out the best work in general but I feel like Canada really should make a come back in the anime dubbing scene.


Too bad FUNi's writing has left a lot to be desired. Their voice acting's mostly fine but they have taken too many liberties in recent years with their dub scripts to the point of causing controversy for some shows (see Attack on Titan, Prison School, season 2 of Free, the second half of Garo season 1 and most recently with Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid).

I would be all for an Ocean comeback (especially if it includes Blue Water) but sadly that's not happening anytime soon for reasons. I would also say the same for New York dubs but there's still NYAV being hired for some stuff (like Your Name & the new Gundam Seed redub) and a lot of those voice actors have been moving to LA anyway.


Hasn't funimation always taken liberties with their dub scripts though? It doesn't seem out of character or new for them? I mean now a days I guess its a bit more taboo to stray from the source material but I personally don't mind it all that much as long as the performances are quality. Yu Yu Hakusho for example was one of Funimations arlier shows and the dialogue and all that is pretty far away from the subbed version but people still swear up and down that the dub is way better and funnier than the original. I prefer the more laid back and creative take they have on dubbing shows versus modern Viz's which I feel is much more uptight and kind of mechanically produced for a lot of shows. I think the most fair comparison I can think of are Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter. They are similar enough series even adapted from manga by the same author but Funimation makes Yu Yu Hakusho their own and in my opinion elevates the material whereas I think Hunter X Hunter is just a poor imitation of the sub. I could try and watch Yu Yu Hakusho in Japanese but while I think I would have a good time I would just mostly think about how much better the performances are in English and how much funnier the jokes are too whereas if I watched Hunter X Hunter (2011) subbed I would just be so glad I wasn't watching the dub because its just a crappy version of the sub. It's possible this might just be a bad comparison but this is the impression I get.


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